I’m disappointed to see that the Dutch society has decided to turn their back on liberal tradition of tolerance. I used to envy the Dutch society as the most liberal there is the world. Not so after the ban on burqa:
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds.
The ban as a necessary violation of liberty and therefore, I disagree with the ban. I’d like to make it clear that I’m against the ban not because I’m a Muslim, but rather, because the ban violates liberty. I’d like to identify myself with a value that rises above petty differences.
The Dutch model used to seek to build an open multiracial society. It was a society that celebrated differences rather than a society that succumbed to xenophobia every time new social challenges arose. The ban turns an once open society to a society hostile to differences. To me, the ban is an effort to forcefully assimilate minority Muslim group into the mainstream culture. To me, the ban threatens to make the Dutch society more like what the Indonesian society used to be, where assimilation is a must, where distinct cultures have to rigidly conform to a state-sanctioned way of life.
A forced assimilation makes the Dutch society one step closer to conservative ideas that are ever so hostile to liberal values.
I do however understand why the majority within the Dutch society is eager to encourage its Muslim minority to assimilate – an assimilation that at least demands everybody to adhere to an implicit social contract of liberty, where basic rights such as free speech are guaranteed – into the Dutch culture. I also fully appreciate the difficulty the minority faces in accommodating to that social contract.
Interaction between the two groups has been hard and that contributes to the current tension seen within the Dutch society. The killing of Van Gogh certainly doesn’t aid to tone down the conflict. In a larger scale, what seems to be a clash of civilizations between the West and the Muslim worlds creates and strengthens mistrust between members of the Dutch societies.
Regardless, I offer no solution and I sincerely regret that. But I fail to see how the ban could solve the problem of mistrust. In fact, I’m in the opinion that the ban only amplifies the mistrust. Worse, as I’m made clear earlier, it violates liberty. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
The Dutch society — and the EU at large — should roll back on its support for the ban if it plans to stay true to liberal value and also have the moral authority to advocate liberalism. Or at least, whenever such liberalism concerns civil liberties.
18 replies on “[979] Of to the Dutch: stay true to liberal tradition”
gul:
Read my response properly: nobody should force anybody to wear burqa or not to wear burqa. A true libertarian won’t support both options.
And this has nothing to do with PAS/PKR. Where did I actually defended PAS and PKR?
And I haven’t accused you of anything. I said your idea of ‘islamic liberal party’ sounds similar to someone’s else. See one of the comments at a post of mine. I don’t know why you feel offended at all.
I have better things to do. And I rarely delete off topic posts. I just fly the red flag.
Good for you but “Two wrongs makes a right” is still a fallacy, whether you believe Wikipedia or not…
Green here means environmentalism. Not Islam. I hope that clears everything up.
I’ll let others to interpret your statement.
No. I’m not like you. You are not a libertarian. And you are not a green. You are not a green libertarian.
[ADMIN: suspected impersonator with nick GaryWBush, Musa, Gul etc. Kindly ignore: see http://maddruid.com/?p=1078 ]
About ballistics, see how the comment section digresses from burqa to how you hate pas and pkr and of me accusing you of something I didn’t even accuse you of.
I can see how the topic on burqa moved further to my dislike towards PAS and PKR. However, I am not to blame as I pointed out to you that the requirement to wear burqa is not found in Holy Quran, yet you adamantly defend Islamists’ right to force Muslimah to conceal their beauty. If you defend PAS/PKR, then, I have got to bash them. Also, you tried to dodge by accusing me of being someone I am not and this whole issue got heated. I can make personal attacks too, you know.
This is running out of topic. About your requests from ref, they are visible in this site. I’ll let all the third persons to decide on that.
If this is running off topic, why don’t you join me on Forumharakah.com for a discussion? Forumharakah.com is free-for-all. I know this is your blog, so you should set the limits, such as delete off topic posts.
On two wrongs make a right, it’s a fallacy. See Wikipedia. With respect to burqa, banning burqa because some were forced to wear burqa is a fallacy. Not everybody wears burqa because they were forced too.
To me, Quran is my furqan not Wikipedia. I could go believing everything Wikipedia says but this would make me a kaafir like the Sunni and Syiah sects in Islam. I support banning burqa because nowhere does Quran say that a Muslimah must wear burqa. The Hadiths are complete fabrigations.
About parties, I’d only support for the party that places itself nearest to libertarian and green values.
Hafiz, can you explain what you mean by “nearest to libertarian and green values”? Am I correct to interpret your words to mean you will vote for PAS in a straight fight between Barisan Nasional and PAS?
Just a question, with all the “destroying Muslim hegemony†sentiment, do you hate Muslims?
I am a Muslim, an Ahl-ul-Quran, not a Sunni nor a Syiah. Obviously, I cannot hate Muslims who are of my mazhab but I do hate all Sunnis just as I hate Iblis. As PAS and PKR want to destroy Malay hegemony, don’t they too hate Malays? I don’t see what is wrong in me advocating a third Islamic party (ie one which is libertarian green that uses the name Islam but is open to everyone) to destroy Muslim (read: Sunni) hegemony.
It seems to me that you’re not interested in liberty but rather, are interested in oppressing the Muslims instead.
Its may seem at the first glance but I’m just like you, Hafiz, a libertarian green. I don’t wish to oppress Muslims but *only* PAS supporters, who are hardly Muslim and hardly Kaafir but in fact Mushirik. I support full freedom for other versions of Islam, such as Syiah Islam, Druse Islam and Ahl-ul-Quran to be legalised in Malaysia. I support the complete ban on PAS, just as Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood and Iraqi Baath Party were banned.
Abdullah Gul: Suicide bombing is completely different from wearing a veil – the later deprives other of their liberty and life, the latter does no such thing. Thus it should be a matter of choice. Thus, if choice and liberty were to be limited – there must be clear justification that allowing such would lead to the deprivation of someone else’s rights.
But I don’t see how a burqa increase the security threat in the Netherlands – terrorists can come in all shapes and forms – grandmothers, blond chicks, young boys.
About ballistics, see how the comment section digresses from burqa to how you hate pas and pkr and of me accusing you of something I didn’t even accuse you of.
This is running out of topic. About your requests from ref, they are visible in this site. I’ll let all the third persons to decide on that.
On two wrongs make a right, it’s a fallacy. See Wikipedia. With respect to burqa, banning burqa because some were forced to wear burqa is a fallacy. Not everybody wears burqa because they were forced too.
About parties, I’d only support for the party that places itself nearest to libertarian and green values.
Just a question, with all the “destroying Muslim hegemony” sentiment, do you hate Muslims?
It seems to me that you’re not interested in liberty but rather, are interested in oppressing the Muslims instead.
[ADMIN: suspected impersonator with nick GaryWBush, Musa, Gul etc. Kindly ignore: see http://maddruid.com/?p=1078 ]
abdullah, you are putting words into John’s mouth.
I did not put words into anyone’s mouth. Can you provide references?
anyway, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Two wrongs do make a right in my worldview. That’s why I vote for anything but PAS and PKR. Hafiz, can you tell us all who will you vote for, if given these choices?
A. Barisan Nasional vs PAS
B. Barisan Nasional vs DAP
C. Barisan Nasional vs DAP vs PKR
Make your move so we can judge your personality/character.
[ADMIN: suspected impersonator with nick GaryWBush, Musa, Gul etc. Kindly ignore: see http://maddruid.com/?p=1078 ]
wow. I just mentioned the name \â€garry w bush\†and you go ballistics. any reason for that?
When did I go ‘ballistics’? Can you provide references? I doubt you can as you are playing the game called McCarthyism.
Hold on your horses. And I haven’t accused you of anything…
I repeat: Can you provide references when did I go ‘ballistics’?
wow. By just mentioning the name “garry w bush, you go ballistics. any reason for that?
Hold on your horses. And I haven’t accused you of anything…
[ADMIN: suspected impersonator with nick GaryWBush, Musa, Gul etc. Kindly ignore: see http://maddruid.com/?p=1078 ]
And somehow, talking about “liberal islamic partyâ€, the name “garry w bush†comes to mind familiar.
Its amazing that you refuse to split the opposition vote, which shows you are secretly a supporter of PAS and its anjing kurap PKR.
I suppose if you have to choose between PAS and Barisan Nasional during a general election, you will either vote for PAS or spoil your vote. Both these two choices means you support PAS coming to power.
A true Malaysian must be fighting PAS and its anjing kurap, PKR until both parties are removed from the parliament and state assemblies. Splitting the Malay vote is crucial to destroying Muslim hegemony.
BTW, you can accuse of me anything, I do not care. That’s called McCarthyism and you do that since you are trying to conceal the fact you are a supporter of Barisan Alternatif, which is no alternative.
p/s I can gurantee come the next general election, PAS will be wiped out in Kelantan and PKR will be wiped out in Permatang Pauh. Anwar Ibrahim and his proxy, Wan Azizah Wan Ismail will be like expiried medicine and the voters will send them into retirement.
p/p/s DAP’s Lim Kit Siang will remain the parliamentary opposition leader as the Ipoh Timur residents will continue to give him their trust.
abdullah, you are putting words into John’s mouth. anyway, two wrongs don’t make a right.
And somehow, talking about “liberal islamic party”, the name “garry w bush” comes to mind familiar.
[ADMIN: suspected impersonator with nick GaryWBush, Musa, Gul etc. Kindly ignore: see http://maddruid.com/?p=1078 ]
I wish to correct an error in my previous comment. I wrote TURKEY but that’s wrong. It should be *EGYPT*. Sorry :)
p/s johnleemk and hafiz, do you want to help establish a Liberal Islamic Party that is open to both Muslim and non Muslim alike? This party will try to gain international accreditation/certification by seeking membership in the International Democrats Union (IDU), a world-wide alliance of political parties on the center-right and right-wing. In Malaysia, all parties are on the left-wing, notably PAS and PKR are on the far-left, BN and DAP are on the center left. We desperately need a right-wing (liberal/capitalist) political party.
[ADMIN: suspected impersonator with nick GaryWBush, Musa, Gul etc. Kindly ignore: see http://maddruid.com/?p=1078 ]
johnleemk, you obviously do not know what is “liberty” and “choice”. In your flawed thinking, “liberty” should mean total freedom to do anything. Perhaps to you, even suicide bombing is liberty.
hafiz, you a Malay right? Do you have any sisters? Do they wear burqah or not? If yes, did your parents force them to wear burqah? I know many Muslimah who are forced by their parents to wear burqah; if they do not their parents resort to violence and beat them up. In Turkey, honour killing includes women who dishonour their family by exposing themselves (includes the aurat).
It’s a question of liberty and choice, Abdullah. If we ban the veil, we are no better than those who would make the veil mandatory.
I’m with you on this. I read the article last week and it is garbish.
It is a knee jerk reaction aimed at only the Muslim minority.
What about Mascots? Will Mickey Mouse be banned?
I doubt it.
it isnt about whether the koran says a person must wear a veil. it’s a question of freedom.
Even Islamic Turkey bans the veil, so why can’t the Netherlands? Where is it written in the Quran that you MUST where the veil ?