Jogging around the local blogosphere, I suppose me and a few other bloggers have been placed by local religious conservative bloggers within the Liberal Islam philosophical school. Though I had no qualm with it initially, I started to rethink whether that label fits me; it doesn’t.
Though these conservative Muslims have attacked the school, I had unwittingly tried to defend it despite the fact that I’m not actually in the latter group. In some cases, some conservatives attacked me on the false assumption that I’m part of Liberal Islam. My uncalculated effort to defend such philosophy hasn’t helped me in dispelling the assumption that I’m part of that loose liberal group.
In time, I’ve recognized such defense was more of a knee jerk reaction on my behalf. So, I had taken a step back and reassessed the situation. This entry will clarify some of my political stances that are relevant to the issue and explain why I don’t subscribe to Liberal Islam philosophy.
First of all, I’m a libertarian. A libertarian is a very specific branch of liberalism. It advocates that individuals should be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long as they do not infringe on the same liberty of others. In short, it calls for freedom as well as respect for freedom. Libertarianism influences all aspects of my life; from economic to social beliefs. Environmentalism also influences me but that’s irrelevant to the objective of this entry.
Being a libertarian and generally a liberal, the call for free speech, etc. comes only naturally. Part of that is freedom of religion. All these are individual rights. Libertarian itself sees individual as the basic unit of a society. These rights are essential components of libertarianism. Without these rights, one’s freedom might mean less freedom for others. I’d call libertarianism as equitable freedom.
In liberalism, the state is established by its citizens to protect the citizens and their rights. The state is there to make sure those rights are not compromised by others — be it by a citizen upon another citizen or a downright infringement of sovereignty by a foreign force. Theoretically, the state is there to provide equal protect to all, hence a fair state. In a nutshell, libertarianism distributes freedom to all equally.
In one way, this grants incredible power to the state that — if it wishes to do so — it could not only not protect its citizens that established the government in the first place, the state could infringe the rights of the citizens. Hence, the question, “who will guard the guardian?”
Democracy is designed to force the state to be accountable to its citizens. It’s the guard that guards the elected guardians. Democracy unfortunately introduces tyranny of the majority. It allows the majority to infringe on the minority’s individual rights which occurs in many places, including Malaysia, France, Turkey and the United States of America. A properly written constitution might provide some safeguard against such tyranny. Alas, the constitution itself is at the mercy of the majority. This is something that still needs to be thought out soon.
Whatever needs to be thought out, apart from rationalism and empiricism, it’s the tyranny of the majority that makes me embraces secularism. Secularism helps forestall such tyranny. It’s one step towards an impartial government.
Secularism forces the state to not favor any religion at the expense of others. The state is responsible to its citizens, not to any particular group within the society. Secularism coupled with a liberal democratic system is fertile ground for a multicultural society like Malaysia.
As a secularist and a liberal, I rarely find myself talking from religious perspective. In fact, whenever I express myself in matter related to religion, it’s because the followers of religion — may it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. — are infringing on individual rights. An example is the enforcement of moral policing which violates common people’s privacy.
Though I’m a Muslim, I take religion as something personal. Add that on top of the libertarian-ness in me, I won’t allow others to regulate my religion or belief as long as I don’t infringe on others’ rights. I don’t mind advice but decisions on my life are mine to take and I can do whatever I like, as long as such action doesn’t affect others.
I don’t see the world through religious prism. Instead, reasons appeal to me. That explains why sometimes I’m hostile towards religious conservatives — regardless of religion — which rarely provide rationality.
Proof to this is that, while I’m philosophically hostile to conservative Muslims, I’m not fond of Christian, Hindu or Jewish zealots either. That’s why I’ve issues the Republicans Party. If it hadn’t been from the religious conservatives, part of me would probably prefer the GOP to the Democrats in the US.
In the final analysis, while a liberal, I’m not part of Liberal Islam philosophy. I’m just a liberal with a strong sense of rationalism and empiricism. I’m a humanist. Suffice to say, the concept of divine rights needs to be rationalized before it becomes rationale.
The school of Liberal Islam may share some of the schools of thought that I subscribe to, but I don’t use religion to advance liberalism. I don’t use religion to justify a lot of things; I use reasons instead. That’s why I’m not a Liberal Islam. The fact that I’m a liberal and a Muslim by birth doesn’t make me a subscriber to Liberal Islam.
23 replies on “[931] Of “saya bukan Islam Liberal””
So you’re essentially saying that you find what has evolved out of your own mind is better than God’s guidance as set forth in his book? Indeed you are a liberal who just happens to be a Muslim, then. It does make me wonder though: what need, then, do you have of religion?
In other words, isn’t the Quran — relegated only to your personal space and affecting nothing of your moral/political convictions — really nothing more than an impotent book that might as well not exist?
Salam,
Your questions have been answered in the entry above.
And I have to point out however that I don’t represent Liberal Muslims.
Salam.
Just came across this site. I am most curious:
If your concepts of rightness and wrongness — including principles of equality and the treatment of other humans — come mainly (exclusively?) from your reasoning, then:
1. What is the point of the Quran to you?
2. What is “religion” — and its purpose — to you?
Not attacking your views, necessarily, but I am intrigued by liberal or Liberal Muslims.
My concern is humanity, which is larger than the Muslim community. That’s why we are on different wavelength. You only amplified your misunderstanding of my philosophy by labeling something that I’m not.
I point it out again, Liberal Islam and liberalism (really classical liberalism) are two different animals. The former advocates liberalism from Islamic perspective. The latter advocates liberalism from humanity perspective. Advocates of Liberal Islam are trapped in the first definition. They would need to quote the Koran or anything related to Islamic source to justify their liberalness. I don’t.
That’s why a lot of your comments against me doesn’t affect me at all. You constructed your arguments against me with Liberal Islam in mind, not a liberalism in the purest sense.
A can’t expect to win against C if A actually attacked B (assuming A, B and C are independent), can he?
Yes, very logical….
So what? So, its still circular reasoning.
The point is, you lied. And you smeared your own name and kill your own reputation when you lied.
And you’re right. I’m poisoning the well and it’s on purpose, not by accident.
Regardless, Wikipedia has more authority than you.
Really? I said: “In any case, having a conservative cap which supports murder and discrimination is far worse than having a liberal cap”.
If you don’t support murder and discrimination, why do you have the notion that I’m attacking you? It can only be ad hominem if you are that conservative that supports murder and discrimination. Are you that hypothetical person that I speak of?
Please refer to my very first point about how I’m a humanist.
Liberal Islam members do that? Good for them.
And you may want to kick Al Kindi, Avicenna, Ibn Rushd, etc out because they used “western” methodologies i.e. Greek. In fact, according to your definition, these Muslims are probably members of so-called Liberal Islam too, especially Ibn Rushd.
Whatever so, though sympathetic I may be to the Liberal Islam people, that’s the fight Liberal Islam people could answer for themselves.
Any more logical answer? Resorting “I don t give a rat ass†is usually reserved for “I can t give a proper reasonâ€.
I already gave you my answer. I do not give a damned about whether there is a Liberal Atheist or Liberal Buddhist. My concern is for the Muslim ummah. It is not a question of a “logical answer”, it is simply what I think.
Of course it’s beyond you. The point is, the website that make such description is your website…
And if I do own it, so what? It does not change the fact that there are various articles on the topic of who and what is an Islam Liberal. Your dredging up of “Liberal Atheists” or “Liberal Buddhists” is simply a strawman. Kindly look that up.
Between you and wikipedia, you have a reputation of lying. So, I prefer to stick to Wikipedia instead you you.
The fact that you have to resort to your liberal heretic pal to smear mud on me just goes to show that you are simply just keen on poisoning the well. That’s already two logical fallacies that you committed.
In any case, having a conservative cap which supports murder and discrimination is far worse than having a liberal cap.
Ad hominem and a red herring. Four logical fallacies on your side.
you breathe. I breathe. If I were a liberal Islam, would you be the same animal because we happens to fits to breathe too? Say a Jew that says the same thing, would he be a Islam liberal too?
Who cares what a Jew thinks? He is not a Muslim, therefore he can say whatever he wants about Islam and it will not bear any weight or consequences on the majority opinion.
That’s not the point. The point is that the Liberals are undermining mainstream Islam by spouting their fallacious opinion and their imbecile rhetoric in public, appealing to the West and proclaiming themselves as “mainstream Islam”, when it is certainly not the case. That their ideology bears more similarity with Western methodologies rather than traditional/orthodox mainstream opinion is lost on those who have no knowledge about those sciences.
That is the whole issue with regard to Liberal Islam and Liberal Islam thought.
Any more logical answer? Resorting “I don t give a rat ass” is usually reserved for “I can t give a proper reason”.
Of course it’s beyond you. The point is, the website that make such description is your website…
Between you and wikipedia, you have a reputation of lying. So, I prefer to stick to Wikipedia instead you you.
In any case, having a conservative cap which supports murder and discrimination is far worse than having a liberal cap.
you breathe. I breathe. If I were a liberal Islam, would you be the same animal because we happens to fits to breathe too? Say a Jew that says the same thing, would he be a Islam liberal too?
That kind of fallacy is Appeal to consequences.
“I don’t seek to reinterpret anything to run my life. I use the human mind to rule my life.”
And that is exactly what an Islam Liberal believes.
– MENJ
“Nope. It’s not nonsense and you know it.”
I work within the Muslim-Islamic framework. I don’t give a rat’s ass about what Buddhists or Atheists believe, they are free to believe whatever they want.
“That definition of yours is a circular reasoning – defining a term at your wimp (the site that you gave is written by you…) and then suggesting that definition of yours is the authoritative definition.”
You need to take a Fallacy of Logic 101 class. How can this be perceived as an “argument” sure beats the hell out of me. I was merely referring to you to the numerous bulk of articles on BIL (majority of the posts are not by me) which gives clear definition of what is an “Islam Liberal” and what do they believe. You happen to fit the definition perfectly.
Wikipedia is a good source for some things but not in this instance. If the cap fits, wear it! Why are you hesitant to wear the “Islam Liberal” label? Afraid of something?
Because that is exactly what you are.
– MENJ
Nope. It’s not nonsense and you know it.
That definition of yours is a circular reasoning – defining a term at your wimp (the site that you gave is written by you…) and then suggesting that definition of yours is the authoritative definition. That’s a bit of circular reasoning. Pardon me if I find use reasoning easily dismissed.
Wikipedia offers a more authoritative definition than you. The Wikipedia article states:
I don’t seek to reinterpret anything to run my life. I use the human mind to rule my life. If you can’t accept it, it doesn’t bother me because I don’t owe you anything.
In fact, since you are active in interpreting the Koran to manage your life, the term Liberal Islam comes closer to you than me…
“I suppose according to you, an atheist that subscribes to liberalism also subscribes to Islam Liberal.”
Well that is nonsense and you know it. I could not care less whether an Atheist or Buddhist adopts a “liberal” view or not.
A definition of who and what is “Islam Liberal is scattered all over the site…all it takes is a simple word search for it. Still confused? Not my problem.
Both you and walski are Islam Liberals, judging from your writings and your worldview.
– MENJ
walski: I’m not saying having liberal views is bad in itself. Quite the contrary.
What I’m saying I don’t see myself as part of Liberal Islam. I’m just a liberal. Like I said in the entry, I don’t use religion to justify freedom. I don’t accept divine right. I use reason instead.
On “bukan liberal”, the context is “bukan Islam Liberal” where “Islam Liberal” itself is the noun that describes a set of idea. Here, I’m contrasting “Liberal Islam” with “Libertarian”. Not “Not Liberal” (in other word, conservative like you said) with “Liberal”. I apologize if it causes confusion.
Liberal Islam uses the religion or some sort of divine revelation to justify a some sort of liberalism within Islam. Divine revelation is something irrational and I find standing on divinity while believing in liberalism as something impossible to shallow.
Libertarian is quite the opposite. It uses secular reasoning (rationalism/empiricism) to justify liberalism within humanity. The latter version of liberalism (as well many other secular type of liberalism) is wider in scale and more rational in nature.
In my view, liberalism must always come with rationalism/empiricism. Through rationalism/empiricism, divine rights are irrational. While I commend those in Liberal Islam for their liberalism, I’m don’t want to be part of it because Liberal Islam comes not with rationalism.
Keeping it simple, I see that Liberal Islam school along with the conservative school don’t subscribe to rationalism.
Therefore, I’m not in the Liberal Islam school. Calling myself a libertarian would be most accurate.
Nothing wrong with being Liberal or Libertarian – it’s not as if having a liberal point of view is bad in itself, it’s all relative anyway.
Incidentally, Bukan Liberal = Conservative – both semantically and etymologically.
If folks like MENJ choose to regard these labels as derogatory, so be it. And labelling is easy, no?
Islam is suppose to be Liberal. Islams fundementals are based on liberalism.
Those who who believe otherwise whould be executed Iranian style. -)
I suppose according to you, an atheist that subscribes to liberalism also subscribes to Islam Liberal. I would not be surprised if you call a Buddhist that supports liberalism in Islam as Islam Liberal too.
It is hard to see colors when a person suffers color blindness.
You still sound like an Islam Liberal to me.
– MENJ